Record of Telephone Conversations of 11 and 12 November, and Meeting of 14 November 1994
BA Bertie Anderson (no. 2 worker in Ireland)
EMK Edna Kee (mother of RJK)
JHK Jack Kee (father of RJK)
RJK Robert Kee
ZFK Zena Kee (wife of RJK)
TG Tommy Gamble (Irish overseer)
NT Noel Tanner (former worker)
Friday 11 Nov. 1994 - Tommy Gamble phoned.
TG refused to meet at Greenvale, RJK's home.
TG -"You are the one with the problem. You can come to see me". Suggested Monday 14 at Betty Stewart's house.
RJK expressed surprise that TG did not understand by now that he had a problem as leader of an organisation which sent out a paedophile evangelist, who had sexually assaulted RJK.
RJK pointed out that Cardinal Daly, as head of the Catholic Church, was currently in court in a case involving sexual offences against young children by a priest 20 years ago.
RJK quoted a Belfast Telegraph headline - 'Paedophile priest sued by family'.
TG said that they were not an organisation and did not have any money.
RJK responded that those would be interesting points to prove in court.
TG then agreed to phone again before the weekend.
Saturday 21 - TG phoned.
TG still refused to meet at Greenvale.
RJK gave TG 4 options:
1. Respond to letters in writing.
2. Respond in person at Greenvale.
3. Conduct the discussion through the columns of the Belfast Telegraph newspaper.
4. In court - the next letter from RJK would be a solicitor's (lawyer's) letter.
TG responded that he hoped RJK would not resort to 3 or 4, and immediately agreed to meet at Greenvale.
TG pointed out that Tuesday 15 did not suit.
RJK suggested Monday 14, as TG had already given this date in the previous phone call.
TG agreed to check if he could come on this date.
Saturday 12 - TG phoned.
TG phoned to confirm that he could come to Greenvale on Monday 14.
RJK asked if he would be alone.
TG said he would bring Bertie Anderson with him.
RJK pointed out that he knew BA, and he did not think he was a suitable person.
RJK expressed the opinion that, while he respected BA, he gave him the impression that he had a closed mind and a limited intellect. RJK suggested that some of the younger workers would be more suitable - there were many that RJK respected.
TG said that no others were available (this is surprising since Edgar Lowe and David Delaney were in the Belfast area), and pointed out that Walter Milligan and Jack Duncan were in Dublin.
Note: Walter and Jack were present at the excommunication of RJK's parents.
RJK said that Walter Milligan would be unsuitable, as he was someone who appeared to enjoy 'throwing his weight around'. RJK had seen him in action, putting people on the spot in meetings by demanding testimonies, and humiliating others who had not taken part.
RJK said that if TG insisted, he could come with BA.
RJK explained that he was not acting on behalf of his parents, and emphasised that for 20 years he had 'bottled up' anger and questions relating to his own experiences within the ‘testimony’. RJK stated that he had refrained from confronting the workers, due to his respect for his parents. However, after his parents' excommunication, RJK felt free to express his views and to ask questions. RJK pointed out that after the grievous misjudgement of the Noel Tanner affair by senior workers, his parents had submitted to the decisions of the senior workers and they had not endeavoured to pursue the matter. Likewise, in their current situation, they had submitted and resigned themselves to the judgement and punishment.
TG agreed that he had heard that, with regard to the NT affair, JHK and EMK had not sought to pursue justice.
TG concluded by saying that he did not want the situation to develop into an argument.
RJK said that, from his point of view, he had written a letter in August (sent on 5 Sept.), it was now the middle of November, and he still awaited answers.
Monday 14 - Meeting at Greenvale
TG and BA came to Greenvale
RJK began the discussion by referring to his letter of 5 September.
Homosexuality and the Noel Tanner Affair
Referring to Question 1, RJK said that this point had already been addressed.
In response to Question 2, TG and BA said that they were not present, and they supposed that my father's account of NT's sexual assaults had not been believed.
RJK pointed out that, to date, he had revealed to no one the extent of the assaults by NT against his person.
RJK refused to divulge the identity of the 2nd homosexual individual who had assaulted him.
TG and BA agreed that the workers were wrong in their handling of the NT affair. They also agreed that workers were not infallible, and pointed out that Paul and Timothy(??) disagreed. RJK pointed out that when he attended their meetings, he used to take comfort from the fact that Paul and Timothy disagreed, since this showed that even the disciples were not infallible and therefore RJK could decide for himself which doctrines of the workers he would accept or reject.
TG appeared to believe that his absence during the NT affair absolved him of all responsibility. He did not appear to grasp the points that:
(1) the misjudgement of the senior workers on this issue set a precedent and showed that serious misjudgement on important matters had occurred in the past, and
(2) as overseer, he is accountable for the cover-up and lack of any attempt to help the victims.
On these issues, the parallels with the behaviour of the Catholic church are remarkable.)
RJK pointed out that BA was in Ireland during and subsequent to the NT affair. Furthermore, BA was in Tyrone (RJK's home county) shortly after the NT affair.
RJK asked why the workers he had professed through, Iris Northridge and Doris Chambers, had not spoken to him about the assaults.
BA replied that Iris and Doris were probably too embarrassed.
RJK replied that they could easily have asked a male worker.
RJK asked why no attempt had been made to find out who the other victims were. RJK knew of a few others and refused to reveal their identities, saying that they maybe did not want any contact with the workers, and in any case it was TG's problem to deal with the matter. All of the victims known to RJK had severed their links with the ‘testimony’. Since the meeting of 14 November., RJK has heard of one additional victim who has attempted suicide on a number of occasions.)
TG replied that they only knew of 1, ****, and asked if they should contact him.
RJK responded that he had never discussed NT with ****. However, it was likely that he wanted to forget the whole episode.
ZFK said that she believed that ****’s parents) were owed an apology.
Question 6 / Role of Workers
In response to Question 6, BA said that the role of workers was to advise, and that in giving advice, they must consider the interests of the wider body of converts. BA and TG said that they should advise converts in the same way as Paul had given advice in his epistles.
RJK asked, " who had Paul ever excommunicated?". BA and TG replied that one person had been excommunicated for fornication.
In relation to the role of workers RJK suggested that workers should have a positive religious role to play in marriages, instead of instigating new rules which appear to be aimed at spoiling a very important day. ZFK indicated that she knew two girls who were distressed by these new rules.
TG replied that moderation was important.
Woman's Clothing, etc.
In response to an question totally unrelated to clothing by ZFK, TG declared that the scriptures made it clear that women should not wear mens' clothes, and that it was therefore wrong for women to wear trousers. (ZFK, although ‘professing’, occasionally wore trousers.)
RJK said that he could hardly believe that TG would 'trot out' this narrow interpretation of Deuteronomy 22. RJK pointed out that in China, trousers were considered to be a womans' clothing, and skirts are immodest. RJK said that in the same chapter, there are other rules which are apparently ignored, e.g. two types of grain are not to be sown in the same field, and two types of material are not to be mixed in the same garment.
TG and BA did not respond.
RJK said that he knew of 1 female convert who was married according to all of the latest rules, was highly regarded by the workers and never wore trousers. This same individual had such low moral standards that trousers would have been an inconvenience to her.
RJK pointed out that, as a teenager, he thought that the vast majority of those who attended meetings lived to the same high moral standards as his parents. However, in his early 20's it was a shock to discover that his parent were almost exceptions - dishonesty, fornication, adultery, homosexuality, malicious gossiping, etc. are rife. BA pointed out that there were 5 foolish virgins as well as 5 wise virgins, and suggested that up to 50% of the converts could be found wanting on the judgement day. ZFK suggested that the same reasoning could be applied to workers.
### (sister of RJK)
TG had written to ####, as he had been told that #### had tried to persuade JHK and EMK to get rid of the TV. RJK and ZFK responded that this information was untrue, and expressed the view that perhaps he (TG) should devote more of his efforts to dealing with malicious gossip, which appears to rife among the converts. (It is perhaps surprising that on this issue, TG appears to be unable to discern the truth and was so easily deceived.)
ZFK asked if TG would be distraught if he was in #### position, where her parents had been excommunicated. TG responded that he would be concerned if his parents had done something wrong (implying that their sin would concern him, not the punishment).
TG agreed to visit ####.
William Irvine and Edward Cooney
TG and BA agreed that there was 'no-one in the true way' immediately prior to 1900. BA called this a 'dark age'.
TG and BA believe that William Irvine experienced a conversion similar to that of John the Baptist.
TG and BA stated their belief that following the William Irvine conversion and founding of the testimony, the only way to eternal life is by a profession of faith through one of Irvine's successors, i.e. a worker. TG pointed out that a few exceptions may exist through experiences similar to that of John the Baptist.
TG claimed that Edward Cooney was excluded because he 'began to preach himself, not Christ'.
RJK said that accounts of Cooney's life claimed that he did not accept the 'doctrine of the living witness', whereby a person may only be born again through a living witness. Cooney believed that he and others had a personal experience of conversion. This was in direct contradiction to Irvine's teachings and the current beliefs, as expressed by TG and BA. (Cooney did not believe that the should be any such thing as a 'worker's field', for this resulted in too much human control - workers were to serve and not to rule.)
TG and BA did not know why William Irvine was excluded.
RJK said that the accounts he had read suggested that Irvine, in common with the founders of many sects which flourish, tried to find his own existence foretold in the Bible - he apparently decided that he was one of the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation 11, and went to Jerusalem to await the Lord's return - spent 12 years waiting. (He also was reputed to have a 'weakness for women'.)
RJK suggested that it was surprising that a man of Irvine's character had been chosen to found the 'only true way'. (Irvine allegedly had an illegitimate son whom he fathered prior to becoming a Faith Mission worker.)
BA pointed out that a Canadian professor had uncovered evidence of 'something similar to the meetings' in the 'middle centuries'.
RJK suggested that, as someone who devoted his life to 'saving souls', and in the light of RJK's question on the matter, he should have sought out this evidence in an effort to save RJK.
(It is possible that BA's source was referring to the Albigenses or Cathari who flourished in the 11, 12 and 13th centuries, and were annihilated by Pope Innocent in 1229.)
TG and BA still maintained that the 'way' had existed from the beginning.
RJK suggested that their interpretation of the 'way' could have existed from the beginning, but that this would apply equally to any other interpretation.
TG made no attempt to elaborate on his previous claim that a 'remnant' had existed 'from the beginning'.
Neither TG nor BA has read any of the books relating to the testimony. Both said that they would not read such books.
Excommunication of EMK, etc.
TG and BA seemed to believe that EMK, as a woman, played a secondary role in the decision making of the household. They appeared to believe that ownership of the TV was JHK's responsibility. Despite the belief that EMK had no control over whether or not the household had a TV, both TG and BA believed they were right to challenge EMK on this issue. They appeared to believe that EMK was living in a sinful position, and they had given her the opportunity to absolve herself by inviting her to denounce JHK's decision to own a TV. When asked why they did not feel obliged to confront ZFK and countless others who live in situations where a partner or friend owns a TV, no coherent explanation was given. RJK pointed out that it was very strange that they felt compelled to confront his mother on this issue - if taken to its logical extreme, they would need to confront every convert about every potential sin. RJK emphasised the ruthless nature of his mother's treatment, particularly in view of her father's recent death.
RJK asked if they had any doubts or misgivings about the way they had dealt with his parents.
BA said that they had none - they were absolutely convinced they were right.
RJK asked if they would do the same tomorrow.
BA replied that they would.
RJK asked if they had already decided to excommunicate his parents prior to the first visit.
BA replied that they did not know that his father would refuse to obey. BA also pointed out that he had spoken to TG that evening after the excommunication, and TG was in complete agreement with their handling of the matter.
BA and TG refused to name the person who had informed on JHK. TG claimed to have forgotten who told him.
ZFK asked why the punishment was applied immediately, and why they had not taken time to make the decision and to give JHK and EMK time to consider.
BA replied that JHK had 10 years to consider the issue.
ZFK asked why the bishop of the church was the last to be informed.
BA replied that 'someone had to be last'.
RJK pointed out that many people were very angry and unhappy about their handling of his parents.
BA and TG replied that they had heard no criticism, and one family who attended the meeting in JHK's home had agreed with the punishment.
RJK pointed out that in view of the unchristian attitude and the lack of mercy and compassion which was evident during the handling of his parents, and during the current discussion, it was not surprising that no-one complained. RJK pointed out that in general, tyrants and dictators such as Saddam Hussein do not personally hear much criticism.
ZFK pointed out that even other workers, particularly sister workers, were afraid of TG.
RJK inquired as to why no-one ever dared to ask questions - he personally had considered asking some as a teenager, but never dared.
TG did not agree that no-one asked questions.
ZFK and RJK expressed the belief that God would show more compassion and mercy than TG and BA.
BA on several occasions attempted to justify/reinforce his belief in his rightness by emphasising the personal sacrifice he had made.
RJK pointed out that nothing can be justified on the basis of sacrifice - many others (e.g. Muslims) made great sacrifices.
RJK asked:
(1) Why were 99% of new converts were children of members?
(2) Did the 1,000,000,000 people in China, where there are a handful of workers, have an equal chance of salvation?
The responses to the above are only vaguely recalled, but were to the effect that if someone's 'heart was right', they would meet the workers.
ZFK Sacraments
RJK asked why ZFK was not given the sacrament for 1 year after her marriage. RJK said it gave him the impression that the workers believed that ZFK had 'polluted' herself by marrying him, and he felt insulted by this inference.
BA replied that they did not approve of converts marrying individuals who were not 'in the Lord'.
RJK responded that he resented BA's judgement of him, and pointed out that BA knew nothing of RJK's relationship with the Lord or RJK's moral standards, which RJK knew to be higher than many of the converts.
BA retracted his statement, and rephrased it to say that marriage to someone who is 'not in the fellowship' is not approved.
Walter Milligan at the funeral of Hannah Jarvis
RJK described his reaction to Walter Milligan's attitude at the funeral of Hannah Jarvis, where he had been accompanied by ZFK, who was to become his wife. (ZFK was professing). W Milligan in his manner had made it evident that he did not approve of the relationship between RJK and ZFK. RJK stated that he did believed that W Milligan was in no position to and had no right to make any judgement on his suitability as a partner for ZFK.
TV and Radio
Regarding the issue of radios, BA said they would 'prefer' converts not to own or listen to them.
RJK recalled that 15 years ago, BA's policy on radios was similar to his current attitude to TVs. Specifically, RJK mentioned a Christmas meeting in which BA denounced radios - the term 'prefer' certainly did not reflect the attitude at that time. BA and TG did not comment further on this inconsistent policy, but stated that no meeting could be held in a home with a radio.
BA and TG also stated that in the case of parents of un-professing children, where the children have a TV in the home, the parents would be excommunicated, as they had the responsibility for the home. RJK pointed out that one bishop he knew of had been in this position for many years.
RJK asked BA if he had ever seen a TV.
BA responded that he had seen a TV on a plane, and was shocked by what he saw.
RJK responded that what he had seen was the replay of a video.
RJK pointed out that, in his opinion, the battle against TVs was already lost. Many converts own TVs, particularly in the USA. In England, some are known to hide a TV in the garden shed. RJK also said that possibly in 5 years, and certainly in 10 years, most homes will have a computer controlled screen connected to an information 'superhighway'. This screen would provide video telephone, shopping, banking, education, information and entertainment (TV) functions. It was inevitable that these systems will be owned by a large number of converts.
ZFK pointed out that TVs are widely used for educational purposes in schools.
General Comments
TG and BA do not agree that to deny access to the sacraments is excommunication, despite the clear definition in the Oxford dictionary.
As a result of exposure to the ‘testimony’, RJK had suffered sexual assault and two nervous breakdowns, but he considered BA and TG to be bigger victims.
BA and TG were in complete agreement with each other on all issues.
BA occasionally appeared to be shocked by RJK's anger, attitude and lack of reverence, and on 2 occasions reminded RJK that God was watching. RJK responded that BA could not intimidate him in the way that he could with the converts. (BA's concern may have been genuine, but nevertheless the remarks by BA were intended to inhibit the frank expression of opinions.)
BA appeared to be firm in the belief that he and his colleagues are disciples, and their word is God's word, despite acknowledging that his former senior colleagues had shown such a lack of judgement in the NT affair.
Robert Kee
1 January 1995